Season 3 - Ep 2: Robin Kelsey and Lori Gross - Building the ArtLab

Season 3, Episode 2: Building the ArtLab
In this episode, we speak with Robin Kelsey, Shirley Carter Burden Professor of Photography in the Department of History of Art & Architecture and the former Dean of Arts and Humanities, and Lori E. Gross, Associate Provost for the Arts, about the history and making of the Harvard ArtLab.

Robin and Lori share insights into the building’s development and design, reflecting on the balance between the needs of faculty, students, and visiting artists while guiding the project from concept to completion.

Join us for an illuminating conversation on how university leadership, architecture, and the arts converge to shape creative research at Harvard.

Thanks for joining us for Works in Progress. We hope these conversations give you a glimpse into the creativity, collaboration, and experimentation happening at ArtLab. To learn more, visit artlab.harvard.edu.

The podcast is recorded in the Mead Production Lab at the ArtLab in Boston, Massachusetts.

Hosted by Bree Edwards
Audio by Luke Damroch
Production by Kat Nakaji
Research by Sadie Trichler & Ria Cuéllar-Koh

Design by James Blue & Sonia Ralston

Transcript

[INTRO MUSIC PLAYING]

BREE EDWARDS: 

Hello and thank you for joining me for Works in Progress. 

I'm Bree Edwards, director of the ArtLab at Harvard, a place where artists, students, and scholars come together to explore, experiment, and create new work. 

The ArtLab is a special initiative of Harvard's Office of the President and Provost, supporting creative research and development across disciplines. 

In this podcast, we go behind the scenes to hear from artists as they grapple with big questions and transform their ideas into art. 

BREE 

In this episode of the podcast, we're joined by Lori Gross and Robin Kelsey, two key people at Harvard who were instrumental in the creation of the ArtLab. 

We will discuss the history of our program, cross-disciplinary collaboration on campus, and the importance of the arts in knowledge production. 

Hi, Lori and Robin. Thanks for joining me today at the ArtLab. 

LORI GROSS 

We're so happy to be here. Thanks for asking. 

ROBIN KELSEY 

Such a pleasure. 

BREE 

I often think that the ArtLab would not be here without the work and the advocacy and the support of both of you. So I just want to publicly go on the record and say thank you. 

I know there's a lot of other people involved—donors and architects, very important people—but the two of you have really supported the ArtLab and been great champions for artists and process throughout the existence of the ArtLab. So, thank you. 

And I thought it would be good if we had a moment to kind of talk about the evolution of this space, how it came to be. 

ROBIN 

The origins of the ArtLab go back to the presidency of Drew Faust, who was very interested in transforming Harvard as a place for the arts. She wasn't alone among university presidents trying to enhance the arts at universities. It was in the water, so to speak, but she certainly was a visionary leader in this regard. 

And one of the first things she did when she became president was to convene a task force on the arts and asked the great scholar Stephen Greenblatt to chair it. And that task force produced its report in December of 2008, which was a bit of a fateful time given the stock market crash that occurred in October.  

So the vision of the task force was expansive and ambitious, but the means that we had to carry out its recommendations were much more limited. One of the recommendations of the task force was to create a committee on the arts that Lori and I have both worked on pretty much since its inception. I took a year off—Lori’s been a constant presence. 

And one of the other recommendations was to create something that the task force called a “hothouse”, which was a place for experimental art activity that would cross the usual boundaries of art form and discipline. 

BREE 

And that's sort of what we see here at the ArtLab. 

ROBIN 

That is correct. The name Hothouse was dispensed with fairly soon after the report came out, but the idea lived on. It was something we regarded as really essential to carry out the vision for this transformed university for the arts. And so we were thrilled when Drew at a later point told us that she wanted to go ahead with this and that it would be here in Allston. 

LORI 

And we did, there were sort of some pilots along the way. 

We experimented with something called Arts at 29 Garden for a while, which we could do some things, but we couldn't do what we can do here, which is a building that was created specifically for arts research and arts-making. Otherwise, we were just trying to, a little bubble gum and plastic, as it were. 

But we did get the concept of people being able to work together across disciplines, which was really important to us. So then when we had this opportunity, and I think Allston played a big role in it, we were able to create something from the ground up, as it were, and got very good architects involved. It was a very interesting and quick process, which is unusual, and I think that had to do with Drew's vision, a lot of work, and the architects who made this possible. 

BREE 

And backing up the time that the task force was formed, I want to talk about the arts prior to the task force. Harvard, one of the longest-running institutions, the oldest institutions, has 13 colleges across the university, obviously supports groundbreaking innovation, collaboration, and has always supported the arts. 

But from what I understand, there was something, a shift that was happening with the formation of the task force that was changing the way the arts would take place here at Harvard, and the way they were supported, organized, and structured. 

So I want to just go back because there are a lot of institutions, programs at Harvard. There's the Office for the Arts, there's the Harvard University Committee on the Arts, there's the Art Lab, there's museums, theaters. There's a lot of support for the arts at Harvard and there has been. 00:05:44 BREE 

But in the past, I don't know how many years it's really been, 20 years? 

LORI 

2008. 

BREE 

2008. 

LORI 

So, I would say when I came—which was then—they were, Harvard, I would say, was known more for the study of arts than the making of arts. And I think that's one thing that the task force was talking about, that ways of knowledge were not just about studying, but also researching the arts and making was really part of knowing the arts. And I think that we saw that shift somewhat gradually.  

Every year, I would create this document that said how many artists—practicing artists—were on, and that kept going up in a steep curve. And I think in many ways, that was the biggest shift of having more practicing artists here, in all the disciplines, as opposed to only the visual arts. A lot of the music department, even early on, was more about the study of music than it was having practicing artists. So to me, that was the biggest shift, getting artists both as visiting artists, but really getting them on the faculty. 

ROBIN 

I completely agree. What they used to say about the old music department is “music was to be seen and not heard.” That is certainly not the case now, so it has been transformative. 

I think the last count I made, the Faculty of Arts and Sciences has added 14 faculty artists since the time the task force report came out. The other thing I would say about the transformation is that Harvard has always attracted extraordinary artists among its students, and we're exceedingly proud of the tradition of producing phenomenal artists from Yo-Yo Ma on down.  

But for the most part, the arts were something that were engaged in by students in the extracurricular realm. And we celebrate all that wonderful extracurricular activity and of course want to see it continue to flourish. But there was a sense at the time that the task force was convened that Harvard had failed to take the arts seriously as a cognitive activity, as part of the core intellectual mission of the university. 

So, one of the main aspirations was to bring the arts into the center of cognitive life on campus, and it's been really exciting to be a part of an initiative to try to remedy that. 

BREE 

You both have been really critical to bringing artists to campus in different ways—in visiting artists' capacities, commissions, and as faculty. Why is it so critical to have artists here in that knowledge production and teaching? 

LORI 

Well, to me, I think it was really important to have models here that were actually in the practice of arts that the students could see, because I don't think they were seeing it here so much. And if you don't see it, you don't try to become that. 

I think that was really important in terms of the students, but also bringing it into the actual academic arena was so important. 00:09:03 LORI 

Because of the people that came here, students that already were fantastic in the arts—and we have so many of them every year—that was great for them, and they were going to continue being that. 

But for people who came who didn't have that kind of exposure to the arts or to the practice of arts, having people here and having people on the faculty—that was invaluable to get other people really interested in the arts and becoming people, frankly, like Devon Tines. 

I mean, he came here with—he wasn't so interested in the arts—and now he's an amazing opera singer who's getting the arts medal in a few days. So, I think bringing more people into the arts really required that we had faculty artists here that could be those models and really be able to teach them—have people understand what research in the arts was—which I think was totally not understood.And I would say that the ArtLab plays a critical part in that, in understanding what research in the arts can be, too. 

ROBIN 

I completely agree with that. I would only add that the relationship between arts activity within the curriculum and the more traditional scholarly activities is not a zero-sum game by any stretch of the imagination. 

That, in fact, to study the history of art, the history of literature, the history of culture generally, requires understanding that it's a living entity and that one is living through one's own historical moment in which decisions are being made that will have lasting consequences. So, I see this as something that has not only enhanced the experience of our students who are choosing to go into the arts, but actually having enhanced the curriculum across its entire breadth. 

LORI 

I mean, if I can go back to when I was a student studying art history and had absolutely no talent in making of it, but—we share that. We were forced to take studio arts and it had a huge impact on my understanding of art history, to understand the materials and understand what it was like to actually make something. I don't think my understanding of art history would ever have been the same without that. So, I think what you're saying is so true between both parts of it. 

BREE 

I wanted to also ask about, at a university like Harvard—where there is a lot of pressure on students, external pressure on the university—to champion experimentation, collaboration, and process can be a risky thing. I wanted to just talk about the value of experimentation and collaboration, particularly at a place like Harvard, and the value of that specifically in the arts. 

ROBIN 

The arts are where culture goes to experiment. And if we're going to find a way forward to have as healthy a culture as we can, it's going to require the arts to lead the way. I also think that the arts are a remarkable crossroads at the university. Artists are a bit like magpies. They collect all kinds of things and bring them back to their practice. So artists are phenomenal agents of connection across the university. And we've seen that at the ArtLab, where so many of the artists who have done work at the ArtLAB are not engaging in the arts in a kind of old-fashioned modernist autonomous way, but actually finding ways to build bridges between the arts and other disciplines. 

We've seen on many occasions that the artists that we've brought to campus, either onto the faculty or as visitors, have inspired the scholars here in remarkable ways. 

BREE 

Can you talk more about that? 

ROBIN 

Well, there's a wonderful case at the Radcliffe where there was an astrophysicist who was in residence and there was also an artist in residence, and the artist had an exhibition of quilts of star charts. It was a project that was recognizing and thinking through the work of women who'd been so-called calculators in the early work in astronomy at Harvard.  

The astrophysicist saw the exhibition and then started a conversation with the artist. And what ensued was a new theory on the part of the astrophysicist. I mean, it's one of the most dramatic examples I've ever witnessed of the way in which the arts and the sciences can synergistically contribute to one another. 

LORI 

And it was no accident that we called ArtLab a “lab”. It was very purposeful that we didn't call it a center. It was really about this idea of bringing people together, research, and in the same way that the sciences are. 

I mean, before I was at Harvard, I was at MIT, and it was very clear that the way artists work and the way scientists work is so similar.  

In some ways, much more similar than the way historians or even art historians and artists work, because it's very important to be working in groups, in collaboration, and in a place that you do experiment and you do fail, and you learn from that failure. And so it was extremely important that this was called a lab, to bring that with it, so that concept of experimentation and innovation was there. 

And I think it was helpful that it was in Allston, which has this kind of feeling of maybe a little more experiment and innovation, the Harvard Innovation Lab, the iLab. Being a part of that lab culture, I think, was really important for us to be able to push on the idea of experimentation and innovation. 

BREE 

I think many of the artists that you've both brought to campus have connected with the university priorities of the time, and that's not just by chance. How do you go about the process of selecting who's coming and how they connect with the right people when they're here? 

ROBIN 

That is critical. There is a certain kind of artist, and it's not a narrow category, but there certainly is a certain kind of artist who flourishes at Harvard, much more so than at an art school. The artists who really flourish here and really contribute a lot to the institution are these artists who are very interested in other disciplines and other ways of thinking, and do operate to create a sense of the arts as a crossroads at the institution. 

We've been phenomenally successful, I think, in attracting artists of that kind. They obviously also need to be first-rate practitioners, and we've found that magic formula time and again, which has been incredibly gratifying. Because I think there are a lot of artists who would, in fact, not find Harvard a very conducive place and also would not really contribute to the campus intellectual life in the way that we were looking for since the time of the task force. It’s been very exciting to achieve that. 

LORI 

I mean, I think whether it's artists that come here—or frankly curators at the museum or any other parts of it in terms of the arts—there are people that actually want to be working in a university environment. And that’s not everyone.  

The same thing with some curators who would rather be in a public museum. That’s grat, but that’s not taking advantage of what we have. It’s not just putting up with it; It’s like really wanting to be here to take advantage of the kinds of people you can meet here. 

I think of Liz Lerman when she first came and she had this concept in her head about civil war. She went over to, I think it was Wyss or something, to learn about the brain injuries that can happen in Civil Wars, and then she could go to the medical school. I mean, that’s all there. And Diane Paulus at ART uses that all the time when she's starting to do a play. She'll go into the theater collection library. She'll go over to the medical school or the School of Public Health. That's an incredible advantage here, if you're the kind of artist that wants that kind of thing. 

BREE 

And this is research in the arts. It's hard to describe sometimes, but it's great to have those examples that you can really point to. 

I also just want to talk about going back because I wasn't part of those earlier conversations about the design of the building. The flexibility of the building, the way that it was really designed to open and close and is a shape shifter—I often say this building is like a transformer. But that's a radical idea. 

I want to know how you got people on board, how the architects communicated and sold this idea, because it really is a radical idea and I’ve had many, many other universities come. They want to have a tour. They want to build their own ArtLab. Then they realize like, oh, this is a pretty radical building, I think.  

LORI 

We had some advantage that we always knew it was going to be a temporary building. Now, temporary is pretty long-term, but I think you end up having a little more freedom when you don't have to think about how this is going to be here for the next 50 years. Choice of materials, how it works, being able to be that sort of transformational building—we wanted a lot out of this building, and we went through a lot of iterations. We had a lot of people involved, kind of started to narrow that down, but we got a lot of information and people had thoughts that actually couldn't happen here.  

They wanted a very specific music studio that wouldn't work with the highway. Everyone thought originally about their own discipline, and so thought about what the traditional lab environment or the traditional studio would look like is when we had to break apart and bring people in the same room together.  

And there was a lot of compromise with this building. But I do think the concept of it only having to last for a certain amount of time gave us a little more freedom there. 

ROBIN 

I agree with that. I think when we were in the process of coming up with the concept for the ArtLab, we really faced a fundamental architectural conundrum, which is: how do you make a space flexible, but also useful for all the specialists who are going to come into that space? 

And we knew, as Lori said, that there were going to be limits to how much we could accommodate someone who wanted to do painting, for example, or sculpture or whatever it might be. There were going to be trade-offs, but the conversations that we had—and they were extensive with the faculty artists on campus—about how do we maintain that sense that this is not a space owned by any particular art form. This is a space where people come together. This was the vision of the task force that come together from across different art forms, different disciplines, and yet at the same time, give them a space that they would find useful. That's not just an airport lounge where people can come and sit and talk together, right? We wanted practice. That was a challenge.  

It was a pleasure to work with architects. When we selected Barco and Leibinger, I was a little nervous about what these architects were going to be like. And then Frank Barco is from Wisconsin, shows up and I'm like, oh, okay, I'm from Minnesota. I know how to talk to you. This is not going to be a problem. It was great. It was great working with the architects. They were very understanding of the restraints under which we were operating, and they also got the vision. 

So it was a pleasure, even as we had to make certain compromises, it felt that we never lost track of the vision and the kind of baseline of what was going to make that vision operative.  

LORI 

I still miss the garage door, but— 

ROBIN 

Yes, there are always things that are left by the wayside that one misses. 

LORI 

But I think that concept of, “no, if you want to do oil painting, this isn't the place for it,” not only because it can't accommodate it, but because that's not what it's going to be best for. We had to keep that in mind.  

And there were disappointments, you know, and we had to work with those disappointments. But I think it ended up where it should be and where it could be.  

BREE 

I think those decisions also help guide our programming. Some things we just say no to because it can happen somewhere else, and things that happen here often can't happen anywhere else. There isn't an appropriate place for them. 

LORI 

That's an important point because that's what we were trying to create: a place that if you can do it somewhere else, you probably should. This is for a different kind of thing.  

ROBIN 

We were really guided throughout the process by the specific language in the task force report, which was exceedingly helpful because when it was announced that we were going to be creating this ArtLab, certain members of the faculty came forward with very strong ideas about what it should be. And it was very helpful to say from time to time, I appreciate what you would like to see built, but this is the language in the task force report and this is what we're aiming for. 

So it's really great to have those kinds of guideposts. 

LORI 

And restrictions in some ways. 

ROBIN 

Yes. 

LORI 

Because I think we built this building very quickly, and those restrictions helped. It was going to be in Allston. It was going to be, you know, a rather temporary building. We had a certain pretty modest budget. So all those restrictions made it possible for us to actually build this way quicker than anything would have been able to be built.  

BREE 

And one of the points of pride for me is that the architects are alumni of the Harvard Graduate School of Design and they're also teaching faculty there. I know one of the things that you both think a lot about is the teaching faculty as practicing artists and how that is a parallel practice to their teaching practice, and it's one that often is undervalued where artists teach—they are just seen as teachers. 

I wanted to ask the question: you both have experienced and supported and been to many commissions and performances and initiatives here at Harvard in the arts. Are there any particular examples that really stand out as inspiring or moving or important for you? 

LORI 

For me, it's about the longitudinal. I'm really happy when we're dealing with an artist over time. And I was thinking about this morning, and the ones that were longitudinal, many of them had some moment here at the ArtLab, at least in the past years since it's been here.  

I think of Ayodele Casel, who came once, and she came here early on, and then she ended up having a Radcliffe Fellowship. And then ART commissioned her, has commissioned her for several things. So the longitudinal nature of the effect that IU Delhi can have on this campus and the effect that the campus can have on her is extraordinary because of that.  

I think of Jordan Weber, who we gave a HUCA commission to before he even got here to be a ArtLab Loeb Fellow. And the sculpture is right outside. And people use the sculpture—Claire Chase’s kids did. So once again, that longitudinal moment, Liz Lerman, the same thing. To me, those projects are some of the most meaningful projects.  

BREE 

And they're deeply relational too. They're really about developing relationships and trust and a knowledge of someone's practice and person. 

ROBIN 

It's very hard for me to single out individual engagements or performances, but one of the things that has been so gratifying over the years is experiencing the arts in ways that they leave a kind of beautiful ghost on campus such that the spaces in which those performances or events or exhibitions took place never feels quite the same afterward. And Lori? 

LORI 

Sure, I know where you're going. I figured you would, so I was going to go. 

ROBIN 

No, there's so many examples. I think I'm going to leave to you the one that you're thinking of. But I'll say something about Liz Lerman's initial work in the Carpenter Center that Lori mentioned. I never go to the Carpenter Center without thinking about what she did there. Jill Johnson did something in the rotunda of Widener Library—I pass through that rotunda all the time and I never fail to think about Jill.  

Wherever Claire Chase wanders about with her flute, I want to follow, and the spaces in which she has performed always still feel filled with her spirit. So that is one of the things that I love, that many of the things we do in the arts are ostensibly transient. But in terms of my relationship to the campus, they haven't been transient at all. They have a real lasting impact. 

Do you want to talk about another example? 

LORI 

Well, the other one that was both in the back of my mind was Teresita Fernandez. We did a major commission from the Harvard University Community of the Arts in the center of campus. And it's interesting when you're talking about taking a lead from the artist. I walked around with Teresita, and we don't really have a lot of public art, and we always sort of are sad about it in a bit, but she loved that because it was like this open place. 

So she could do this public sculpture in the most iconic moment of the yard where commencement takes place, where unbelievable speakers through the ages had taken place. And so when you walk through that space, which is autumn, nothing personal, I always feel that, especially in the autumn, because it's right in the middle of the space. 

She created a space that people could gather at that was different in the day and the night that ended up turning into president's holiday cards. And people really talk about that because you can remember what that space looked like, even though it was only there for six weeks. It had programming every day. It was connected to James Baldwin. I mean, it was such an iconic moment for Hookah, I think, and for all of us, that that's the way I feel when I walk through that space. So I know exactly what you're talking about. 

ROBIN 

I wanted Lori to have Teresita because she put so much work into that. I mean, Teresita did too, but the amount of work that Lori put in was staggering and it was really memorable. And I would just only add that the things that have happened in the ArtLab have that same lasting consequence. 

And now for me to walk into what I think of as the hub, that center room, I just get a smile inside every time I do it, because every time I come in and see something, I feel like my mind is expanded.  

BREE 

Well, I hope you both always feel home, away from home here, and the trace of all the early work that you did informing how we do our work here. Thank you both very much. 

ROBIN 

Thank you. This was great. 

BREE 

Thanks for joining me for this episode of Works in Progress. We hope these conversations give you a glimpse into the creativity and experimentation happening here. 

To learn more, visit artlab.harvard.edu. 

This episode was recorded at the Mead Production Lab at the ArtLab in Boston, Massachusetts, with audio by Luke Yamrash, production by Kat Nikaji, research by Sadie Trichler, designed by James Blue, and I am your host, Bree Edwards.